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| Dust Collection Question http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=9348 |
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| Author: | alambert [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:50 am ] |
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A newbie question here. I plan on using at least 3 power tools during my guitar building adventure. A Riged table saw (the non-portable on that’s about $500, a Riged 14 inch Band saw with a stand (the one that’s ~$350) and a Dewalt Router the one that comes with a fixed base and a plunge base. All from home depot. The 2 saws have a vacuum attachment that first a standard shop vac. Should use the standard shop vac attached to the saws? Of should I get one of those cool looking dust collector thingies with the dual bags? My gut says gimmick so I figured I’d ask the pros. I’m my experience, which I have very little of the shop vac does almost no good. If one of those “dust collectors” is going to offer me a significant difference I’ll probably pick one up. What do you think? |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:01 am ] |
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Alan, go with a dust collector, there is no comparision I have a couple of them, one I converted into a cyclone from plans I had and another that I wheel around when needed. You will be amazed by the power of these things, a great investment for your health. Shane |
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| Author: | alambert [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:04 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Shane Neifer] Alan, go with a dust collector, there is no comparision I have a couple of them, one I converted into a cyclone from plans I had and another that I wheel around when needed. You will be amazed by the power of these things, a great investment for your health. Shane[/QUOTE] I take it you connect them to the saw in the same way you connect the shopvac? |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:09 am ] |
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dust is not really so very good for you, so if you intend to create it you should also plan to remove it. a shop vac will not cut it. and i would be looking to go to a collector that uses a canister rather than bags since they remove finer dust particles. my set up is one i cobbled together, but the filtration is via torit canisters which remove dust down to something like 0.5 microns. you should have a look at bill pentz's dust collection site: http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/I ndex.cfm it is the best i know of to give you the information you need to make decisions. |
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| Author: | alambert [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:42 am ] |
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I have a Home Depot Gift card with a little money left on it and I would like to get somthing from there. Any remarks on any of these? http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.j sp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1744789932.1163709352@@@@&BV_EngineID=cc dladdjgjjmkmdcgelceffdfgidgki.0&CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=mis c/searchResults.jsp&MID=9876&N=2984+3966&pos=n24 |
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| Author: | SimonF [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:27 am ] |
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I really think it depends on how much woodworking you will be doing. If your guitar building is just going to be very low key - you can easily get away with using a good dust mask and making sure you clean out your workspace every so often. Then again, if you plan on really diving into lutherie/woodworking, you will probably find that even a 500 cfm dust collector will not do the job - especially if you get a drum sander, etc... Maybe you can give us a bit more information on how avidly you are pursuing guitarbuilding and if you plan on buying more tools down the road. I say this because very early on, I wasted money on buying certain tools that I outgrew. When it comes to tools, it really is better to buy more than you need as opposed to getting a lesser item. Peace Out, Simon By the way, a vacuum creates a lot of pressure with little airflow. A dust collector is not high pressure but moves a lot of air - this is what you want for picking up dust particles. |
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| Author: | Homeboy [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:23 pm ] |
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I have a little delta dust collector that I wheel around my shop. It is the small one with two bags. I like it for most stuff. It does okay on my drum sander but a while back someone said that if you smell the wood being sanded you dont have enough collection. I can smell it son I guess I should upgrade as well. Overall, though, I like my little Delta. Homeboy |
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| Author: | Dean [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:16 pm ] |
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There are two truths in woodworking, You never have too many clamps, You never have a big enough vacumm system. Save your home depot bucks and buy the best collector you can afford. Grizzly gives you alot for your dough. Check ebay for good sales. 1 micron minimum- try to do better. Dean |
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| Author: | Bill Greene [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:30 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Homeboy] a while back someone said that if you smell the wood being sanded you dont have enough collection. I can smell it son I guess I should upgrade as well. Overall, though, I like my little Delta.Homeboy[/QUOTE] This is EXACTLY what I was told. That "if you're not going to wear a mask", and you can smell the wood you're cutting/sanding/etc., then your dust collection system isn't working properly. Otherwise, wear a mask everytime. |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:48 pm ] |
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Yup Alan, you hook it up just like a vacuum. You will likely need some adaptors for various size connections to your machines. The small collectors typically run with a 4 inch hose. Most of the Rigid tools you are thinking about purchasing should work well with this! Shane |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:53 pm ] |
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What is the best dust collector system that money can buy that has the best quality/price ratio and do they make a lot of noise if you compare them to a shop vac? |
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| Author: | Dean [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:11 pm ] |
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Serge, Oneida, You're moving air. The more you move, the louder it gets. I built a sound proof closet for mine. Make sure if you do this to allow lots of venting. Make your vents with baffels so that the air has to snake through to capture the sound. Use plywood with with fiber soundboard on the INSIDE. I also made a small box to slip over my shop vac. What a difference! Dean |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:04 pm ] |
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Hey Serge, the best unit for dust collection will be a cyclone. There are several companies that make them, Oneida, Grizzly, JDS, Clear vue to name some. Most cyclones cost a fare amount with a large motor (2-5 HP), but these things will really pick up the dust and of course it all depends on the filter that is at the end of it as to how much fine particulate gets back into the air. The other thing about the cyclone is that is usually runs quieter than other dust collectors, by how much you say, well that all depends on how large of a collector you have of course. Most cyclones run about 75-85dB (I think that is) Than of course you have the bag style dust collector, now these can be had from as low as $99 on sale to as much as you want to pay (much bigger system, multiple bags etc..). These generally can be moved around from machine to machine (the smaller ones that is 1-2HP) and do a generally good job of collecting dust. The are usually a bit louder than a cyclone, but considerably less money. Than there are shop vac's that generally don't do a great job when it comes time to collect at a larger machine like your sander of bandsaw. A shop vac tends to be the loudest of all the dust collectors, but are also the easiest to move around. Now, you already have a small air filter so that's a good start for the fine particulate, however, the bulk of the dust must be collected some how and a dust collector of some sort is really the first step. If you have about 200 hours to kill, take a look at Bill Pentz's web site on dust collection it's probably the most in depth and comprehensive writing on the net regarding dust collection. Have fun. PS, I still plan on making my own cyclone one of these days. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:21 pm ] |
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Thanks Dean, that's what i thought i'd do for the noise, thanks! Thanks Rod, yeah, i had read that webpage sometime ago and i'm considering building one as well but as you say, many hours to build an efficient one, unless one could buy a very good unit somewhere for a price that would simply help discard the building of one. If one goes the purchase route, what are we talkin' here, in the thousand dollars? |
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| Author: | alambert [ Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:04 am ] |
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[QUOTE=SimonF] Maybe you can give us a bit more information on how avidly you are pursuing guitarbuilding and if you plan on buying more tools down the road. I say this because very early on, I wasted money on buying certain tools that I outgrew. When it comes to tools, it really is better to buy more than you need as opposed to getting a lesser item. [/QUOTE] The 3 of us, my dad, a buddy and my self will be working in my 3 car garage one night a week from now until we complete our guitars (we are building one each). 6 days a week the garage has 2 cars, kids toys, garden tools, old paint, motor oil… all the junk you find in a mans garage! We have been pulling the cars out while we are working to have some “shop room”. As you can imagine it gets pretty dust in there and after nights work we have to open the doors and use the blower to clean the walls, storage shelves, etc. I’m guessing it will take us 6-12 months to complete our project at the end of which I might make one guitar a year or every 2 years. Plus 1-2 other projects per a year. For example we are making a train table for my daughters Christmas. Actually we put the last coat of varnish on it last night. We have a poor mans drum sander. The belt attachment comes off and can be replaced with a small 2 inch drum. See it here |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:35 am ] |
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Serge, if purchasing a cyclone, the cost of course for the unit isn't to bad, say maybe $800 canadian, it's the duct work and blast gates that can really add up. Here's a link to a documented home built unit, on page 8 is a break down of his cost, as you can see, the duct work was twice the cost for him to build the cyclone. I suspect though that he has a larger shop and every single machine he has (I think I count about 8 machines) is hooked up to the unit, this would be a large expense that you don't necessarily need to do of course. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:41 am ] |
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Oh and Toolking.com has this delta unit for sale at $560 can 
They have cheeper ones too, but I suspect, like most things, you get what you pay for. Although, it you look through their site, they have this Jet dc for $226 can 
I'm sure these would get the job done if you were to wheel it around or had a long flexible hose and just hooked it up to your machines when you need it. |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:44 am ] |
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unless you replace the standard bag on the typical dust collector they pass the fine and most dangerous dust, that which is virtually invisible, right back into your breathing air. they basically only collect the chips that would otherwise fall on the floor. thus to be safe you still have to wear a dust mask. the cartridge types are far better than bags, but also have a wide variation in the size of dust they collect. check the specs on whatever you consider and compare them to the osha standards. it's your health you are trying to protect; what price do you want to put on it? |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:47 am ] |
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This is true Michael, besides a dust collector, a good air filter is also just as important when it comes to cleaning the air in the shop. Best to have both IMO. |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:02 am ] |
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i agree, since no collection system is 100% effective in gathering in all the dust that is produced. a number of years ago when i first retuned from overseas and was trying to again set up a shop i was very fortunate to find on the sale table at my local lowes four replacement delta bag filters for their air cleaners for the princely sum of $5.00 each. needless to say i pounced like a cat on a mouse and built some air cleaners using furnace blowers(coast: nil) with electrostatic final filters. between them, and my cobbled up and less than elegant main dust collector(3ph industrial blower obtained at auction for $20 or $25, shop built cyclone, and torit cartridge filters from ebay) i don't have much of a dust problem. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:16 am ] |
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Michael, I've recently made an air filter from a furnace blower with the Lee Valley air filter 
The article states 100% down to 5 micron and 94% down to 1 micron. I'm wondering if this is good enough or if there are better air filter filters out there. You mention an electrostatic filter (don't know what this is) could you please enlighten me on this filter? I think it would be good to add one to my air cleaner. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:18 am ] |
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Al, Sorry to highjack your post, this is all dust collection related though. Here's a free happy face for ya 
Thanks again. |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:25 am ] |
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i just used the electro static hvac filters available from the big box stores. i don't recall the exact performance criteria, but they were the highest rating they had at the time, and were washable. these went on the outlet or exhaust end of the cleaners. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:27 am ] |
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Cool, thanks Michael, that's what I have on the inlet side before the fine filter. |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:17 am ] |
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at the time i compared the filtration figures of the commercial air cleaners and the es filters were of a higher standard, so they were my final filter. you don't want your finest filter to be the first, you want it to be the last. otherwise it is doing the work the coarser filters are supposed to do. like your illustration, i have a coarse pleat, the bag, then the blower and then the es. i have to wash the es filter very infrequently, the bag more often needs cleaning, and the coarse filter is replaced fairly regularly. |
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